DH Snape Problem - help?

[sigune]

You know, maybe I'll give up ficcing after all. I have reached an all-time low, tormented by the fact that canon contains so many stupid twists that my poor brain doesn't know how to base something decent on this junk. I mean - it is impossible to stick to Potter canon for the simple reason that it contradicts itself, so if you go by one bit, it doesn't gel with another. And the irony is that though Rowling can get away with it, I sort of can't.

Below is a problem I have with Snape's timeline. Any theories that can help me make sense of it and ease the terrible pain in my brain will be very, very much appreciated.




"On a cold, wet night" in 1980 [in 1996 it was sixteen years ago (OotP Chapter 37, Bb edition p. 740)] Dumbledore interviews Sybill Trelawney in the Hog's Head. She makes a prophecy saying that at the end of July of the same year, a boy will be born with "the power to vanquish the Dark Lord".

This part of the prophecy is overheard by Severus Snape, who was "himself [...] seeking a job at that time". (HBP Chapter 25, Bb edition p. 509) Snape is caught eavesdropping, but Dumbledore lets him go and Snape reports what he has heard of the prophecy to Voldemort.

On 31 July 1980, Harry Potter is born to James and Lily, a couple who have thrice defied Voldemort by then.

The next date we have is 24 October 1981, which is the approximate day on which the Fidelius Charm is cast over James, Lily and Harry at Godric's Hollow, with Peter Pettigrew as their Secret Keeper (PoA Chapter 10). This is a result of a previous meeting of Snape with Dumbledore, during which Snape told the headmaster that Voldemort has singled the Potters out and that they must be protected (DH Chapter 33, Bb edition pp. 542-4).

Pettigrew spills the secret to Voldemort. Then, on 31 October 1981, Voldemort goes to Godric's Hollow, kills Lily and James, and makes Harry into an accidental Horcrux, losing his own body in the process.


Now, here come the problems I have with Snape's timeline - they are all caused by the elaboration of Snape's conversation with Dumbledore that we got in DH's "The Prince's Tale".


In OotP's Chapter Seventeen, "Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four", which takes place in the autumn of 1995, Snape is asked by Umbridge just how long he has been teaching at Hogwarts. His reply: "Fourteen years". (Bb edition p. 323) That means he started to teach at Hogwarts in 1981, right? Presumably he would have started teaching from 1 September of that year, too.

On 1 September 1981, Voldemort is still in full power; in fact things don't look to good for his enemies. Snape taking a job at Hogwarts would therefore look odd to old snake-eyes; but in HBP, Snape explains that he was sent there by Voldemort himself, with the purpose of spying on Dumbledore (HBP Chapter 2). This is easily verifiable for Bella - she can just ask her Voldie whether it's true - so you'd think that could hardly be a lie. Also, Voldemort doesn't feel inclined to kill Snape on finding out that he has spent all those years at Dumbledore's side.

Logic demands that if the Fidelius Charm over the Potters is cast on 24 October 1981, Snape's discovery of the fact that it is the Potters Voldemort is after has to be a recent one - it must have happened in October.

Now look at the conversation we get in Deathly Hallows. It has to take place in the autumn as the trees are leafless:

---

'Don't kill me!'

'That was not my intention.'

Any sound of Dumbledore Apparating had been drowned by the sound of the wind in the branches. He stood before Snape with his robes whipping around him, and his face was illuminated from below in the light cast by his wand.

'Well, Severus? What message does Lord Voldemort have for me?'

'No - no message - I'm here on my own account!'

Snape was wringing his hands; he looked a little mad, with his straggling, black hair flying around him.

'I - I come with a warning - no, a request - please -'

Dumbledore flicked his wand. Though leaves and branches still flew through the night air around them, silence fell on the sport where he and Snape faced each other.

'What request could a Death Eater make of me?'

---

This passage makes it obvious that Snape's defection from Voldemort and his message that Lily Evans is in danger occur at the same point. He is a Death Eater (fully expecting to be killed on sight) coming to Dumbledore with information, not Dumbledore's spy reporting what he has discovered (as we all assumed before).

This means that either:
- Dumbledore knowingly hired a Death Eater; or he hired Snape, somehow found out he was a Death Eater, but didn't do anything about him (in any case, as subtle_science has pointed out, this doesn't sound like an employer talking to his employee);
or
- Dumbledore only hired Snape after what happened at Godric's Hollow, which means that Voldemort cannot possibly have ordered Snape to take a job at Hogwarts;
or
- the scene takes place in 1980 and Dumbledore has twiddled his thumbs for a whole year until the idea of the Fidelius Charm occurs to him.

Really, what is a poor fic writer to do with such contradicting source material? I never wanted to go AU, but at moments like these it seems that I'll be forced to do so just so the story would make some bloody sense.

*screams*

Comments

[purpleygirl.livejournal.com]

JKR has confessed herself she is no good at maths. I mean, narratively she messed up the sequence of Snape's memories by having Snape read Lily's letter in Sirius's bedroom after Moody had died, when in the recent webchat she said Snape had got into Grimmauld Place before Moody set up that silly anti-Snape charm.

And borolin recently pointed out on someone's journal that, according to Lily's letter, Dumbledore had taken the Invisibility Cloak in July, but that in the King's Cross chapter, Dumbledore tells Harry he'd only taken it "just a few days" before Voldemort killed the Potters. Ack. I don't think we're meant to read into this that Dumbledore was lying -- JKR is just plain bad at maths and keeping her work consistent.

In fact, I find it hard to read much into anything of the characters' motivations in DH simply because I can't take it seriously due to JKR's sloppy work. :(

My advice (for what it's worth) is just to write it how you think is best for your narrative. I doubt very much anyone would complain. Really. Even her own stuff is AU, by all accounts. :/

[sigune.livejournal.com]

"Ack" indeed :/. Yes, I had better just construct my story and see where I end up - still, I'd like to be as canon-compliant as possible; that's the sport of fanfic for me.

I'm awful at maths too, so I can't blame Rowling for getting them so wrong; what I do blame her for is not getting this stuff checked. We poor unpublished authors put more effort in getting our facts right than she seems to do >:-(.

The characters' motivations in DH can be exquisitely manipulated :-). I'm just wondering how far I will go...

Incidentally - if I do go back to my WIP of Doom, would you still be willing to help me out with 'Yorkshirising' the dialogue? I have no intention of writing in a dialect that I do not speak, but a Northern touch here and there would probably not be a bad thing. Only, even for that alone I can't really be trusted *g*. (Not to put any pressure on you or anything ;P...)

[purpleygirl.livejournal.com]

Oh, absolutely! I'll be happy to help however I can. :) And it's nice that my uncouth accent, sloppy dialect has some use! *g* Actually, I'm pleasantly surprised you're still choosing to base him in the north, as according to DH, we're meant to believe that Lily and Petunia were from Yorkshire too!

My email address is purpleygirl at gmail dot com.

On the subject of which, I have to thank you and thirteen_ravens for putting me onto Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell. I just finished it the other day, and I totally fangirl Childermass! :P What's more, I can't now not look at the hills every day and imagine the Raven King dwelling there. She made it all that real for me. :)

[ellecain.livejournal.com]

I think the Fidelius Charm really was a last-ditch effort to protect the Potters.
From what was mentioned in the scene in the Three Broomsticks in PoA, it seems that Dumbledore suspected there was a spy close to the Potters. I assumed the reason they knew that was because the Order had already tried to hide the Potters before, but were unable to do so because they were constantly betrayed. (And I assumed it was Snape relaying the news of the betrayal of their location) And so the Fidelius charm was in fact, a drastic final measure to keep them safe. That's why it was done one week before they died - because they had exhausted all other options. It is not an appealing long-term strategy; how long were they going to stay under house-arrest?

As for the Snape-hiring timeline, I have no idea about that. Maybe that conversation between Snape and Dumbledore took place say- a week before the start of term? That would still fit the details and give James and Lily time to consider other options before Fidelius and be betrayed over and over. So really, all you have to do to make this theory work is assume that Voldemort didn't decide to go after baby Harry until the beginning of autumn (i.e. a little before September 1).

And yes, this is a futile exercise, because like you say - canon contradicts itself. :-)

[sigune.livejournal.com]

Meh. Here's Fudge in PoA:

" Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once. He advised them to go into hiding. Well, of course, You-Know-Who wasn't an easy person to hide from. Dumbledore told them that their best chance was the Fidelius Charm." (Chapter 10)

For me, that certainly sounds as though Dumbledore immediately suggested Fidelius. But I suppose that it still allows for wiggle room, since the time is not explicitly stated, and James might for example have objected to the idea of the Fidelius Charm and insisted on trying other things first - though I would think that very imprudent in view of his son's safety; but he is a Gryffindor, so maybe it's not too weird ;).

Hm. I just wish JKR'd taken a little more care, I guess :/.

[duniazade.livejournal.com]

Ha! Why would you expect timeline consistency from Rowling? She never was any good at that. Your analysis of the glitch is perfect: you can't find a solution in Rowling's text because there isn't one. So you have to choose the hypothesis which suits you best.

Personally, I think that the (stupid) scene on the hilltop occurs in 1980. It's not very satisfying, but the alternatives are worse, because that scene is impossible if Snape is already teaching at Hogwarts. The fact that Dumbledore has twiddled his thumbs for a whole year is consistent with the fact that he let Snape escape from the Hog's Head without Obliviating him, and also with the general portrayal of Dumbledore in DH. I tend to think that Dumbledore *wanted* the events in Godric's Hollow to happen.

And please, continue to write fanfic.

[sigune.livejournal.com]

I usen't to think Dumbledore really orchestrated everything, but in view of DH, it's certainly a possibility I am considering for my version - though it would be most cynical... His letting Snape escape from the Hog's Head is possibly the lamest thing JKR ever let him do; you can only explain it as 1) utter stupidity or 2) deliberately setting the scene for the Potters' deaths. It's terrible to know that this is not what JKR intended. Oh the sloppiness! But yes, I'm so going for 2.

As for the (stupid) hilltop scene, I'm still finding it difficult to choose between placing it in 1980 and just going for a Dumbledore who knowingly hires a Death Eater.

Ah, fanfic. We'll see.

[wvchemteach.livejournal.com]

To me it is obvious the "Don't Kill Me!" scene occurs at some point before Harry is born and Snape defects at that point.

As for waiting so long for the Fidelous I can see James and Lily only going under Fidelous at the last resort when given no other options... but if you also read in Chapter 16 of Deathly Hallows you realize the Potters were 'hidden' in Godric's Hollow for several months under charms less than the Fidelous or they were on the move (I might be confusing fan fiction with DH at this point I'd have to re-read).

[orpheus-samhain.livejournal.com]

Why do you think Snape went to DD before Harry was born? He had no reason to do it then.

[a-bees-buzz.livejournal.com]

I've actually been working on this one for a story of mine. Here's my theory:

Severus goes to work at Hogwarts on Voldemort's orders.

He doesn't tell Voldemort the prophecy right away, holding onto it till he needs to gain favor within the DE group (he is, after all, a Slytherin). The timing of this is up to you.

It is only in October of 1981, when Severus is already working at Hogwarts that Voldemort figures out what the prophecy means (either Severus just told him or it took him a while to work it out). He calls his Death Eaters. Severus is with Dumbledore when the call comes, he grabs his arm and says he has to leave. It is at that moment that Dumbledore realises that Severus is a Death Eater.

When Severus returns from being called by Voldemort, we have the confrontation in the woods.

Does that work for you? You are welcome to use it if you want, though I wouldn't mind a credit if you do.

[orpheus-samhain.livejournal.com]

Severus goes to work at Hogwarts on Voldemort's orders.
Yes, but he was rejected by DD who knew that he was a DE. Only about a year after Harry was born DD admitted him.

Snape told V about the prophecy at once. How do you think Voldy would react if he got to know that Snape was holding this information from him for some time?

And you don't have to credit me for this, it's all in the books ;)

[a-bees-buzz.livejournal.com]

Is Severus rejected by DD? He runs from the hallway, we don't know that he goes back, only that he doesn't get the job at that point. That's 1980. He starts teaching at Hogwarts in 1981, one year later. It is possible that Dumbledore turned him down for being a DE and only hired him when he turned, but it's also possible that he never went back for his interview - which could be because he rushed off to tell Voldie the prophecy or some other reason.

If we assume Voldemort learns the prophecy in mid-1980, and I don't think canon specifies that, we have to believe that he waits over a year to act on it - which could be based on the timeline of the "thrice denied", I can't remember off-hand when the third denial happens.

The scenario I laid out is obviously not the only option, but it is one way of reconciling all (I think, unless I missed something) the canon elements and keeping to the timeline.

The only reason I asked for a credit is that I'm working on a story with this scenario, but it's going to be a while before I get to that part and when I do I don't want to be accused of stealing.

[orpheus-samhain.livejournal.com]

Snape was rejected by DD probably on the night of the prophecy - didn't Trelawney say so? You have to wait until I come back from my holidays and can check the books, if you want details.

Voldy waited because he had to figure out about whom the prophecy was. Again, I can't check it now, but I believe DD said so in OotP after Sirius was killed.

What do you mean by 'thrice denied'?

I understand your apprehension about being accused of stealing, but I don't think it's possible when it comes to facts. Besides, two or more people can come to the same conclusions independently, so you can write whatever you want even if ten more people have fics based upon the same assumption.

[sylvanawood.livejournal.com]

You expect consistency and correct numbers? oO

My take on it is very much like yours.

Harry was born in Summer 1980. The prophecy was made before that, so no one knows yet which baby is meant.

Some time in the winter 80/81 Voldy comes to the decision that Harry is the one. Snape learns about this and goes to Dumbledore. That windswept hill scene is ridiculous, IMO. Why meet secretly where everyone can see you? But anyway, there it was, and there the warning was given, given by Snape, as predicted by so many.

It says in PoA or HBP that Harry and his parents were living at differnt safe houses but were betrayed again and again and had to move, before the Fidelius was made. That would somehow explain the time between leafless hilltop meeting and Fidelius Charm. It also somewhat explains their suspicion on a spy in the Order.

Then there's the matter of employment. Voldemort sent Severus to apply. Severus gets caught listening at keyholes and of course won't be employed, at least if D. isn't a complete idiot. Ahem. So no teaching in 80
Severus returns to V and instead of the job offers the prophecy.
And now V expects Snape to apply again? Knowing that D. knows that Snape listens on keyholes? That makes V an idiot. Ahem. But he's teaching in 81.

IMO that can only work if Snape tells V that he was asked by D to be a double agent. So S is loyal to D and prevents to V that he is spying for him, pretending that D knows that S is spying for V and asks him to be a double agent, when in reality S is a quadruple agent and V thinks he's a triple agent. Ahem. I meant that V thinks that S. is a triple agent, and thinks that D thinks he's a double agent, while in reality S is a quadruple agent. But that doesn't do anything to your timeline problem, does it?

Please, write down your own time line and canon style guide, as it makes sense to you, keep to it, point to it, and get writing! Don't you dare be discouraged by that so-called canon. So there.

[sigune.livejournal.com]

LOL! Yes, Dumbledore and Voldemort both do things that are completely wacky; it's hard to believe that they are supposed to be super-brains. I guess JKR can always save herself by referring to what Hermione said in PS about many wizards not having an ounce of logic ;-). Now, I can't really do better myself; if I want to write about a general with a brain like Caesar's, I have to write about Caesar himself, because I can't invent brilliant strategies like his. What I can do is read experts' comments and try to figure out how the historical Caesar made his plans. I guess that is one reason why I can never be a truly original writer - unless, of course, I learn to be more easily satisfied, but unless you are a success like Rowling (which is, euh, pretty rare of course) you usually can't get away with it. Hm.

It says in PoA or HBP that Harry and his parents were living at differnt safe houses but were betrayed again and again and had to move, before the Fidelius was made.
Any chance you can point me at pages or quotes? I checked Chapter 10 in PoA, and that doesn't lead me to think the Potters had been on the run for quite a while before the Fidelius was cast... In HBP I just wouldn't know where to look for the relevant bit.

I'll see what I can do, but JKR's sloppiness has made my job much more labour-intensive :/.

[sylvanawood.livejournal.com]

I'll look the safehouses up. It's somewhere. I needed it for my Arachne fic, so I know it's there somewhere.

[redvelvetcanopy.livejournal.com]

My mind is a bit boggled by all of this.

O_o

I agree with sylvanawood, however, in that you should write down your own timeline (given that Rowling's is chock-full of possibilities and AU openings!) and just get to writing and illustrating. I'd hate to see you leave.

Just think though, if Snape can fool Tom with Occlumency, he could also pretend to die, giving Harry those memories in a final attempt to free himself of his past. He was a Potions Master--I'll bet he could brew a wicked Anti-Venom. He's out there walking in the Forbidden Forest, I just know it!

*hugs*

[noukran.livejournal.com]

Hello, this is my first post here. I hope you don't mind if I friended you? Here is my theory:

Dumbledore did not hire a potion master in September because he could not find one. He mistrusted Snape and there was no other candidate. So he ask Slunghorn to stay for another year. In December, Severus told him that Voldemort asked him to take the position in Hogward and they both thought it was the best way for Snape to protect Harry when to time would come. So he took the position in January.

[orpheus-samhain.livejournal.com]

Which year?

Anyway, it wasn't January from what Snape said in OotP to Umbridge.

[todayiamadaisy]

I'd take a "cram whatever fits and hope for the best" approach if it were me. :-)

Given the chronological ambiguities of the text, personally, I'd pick option 1. I wouldn't put it past Dumbledore to hire someone he knows to be a DE. That would be a useful thing to have, in terms of being able to keep an eye on him, feed incorrect information, and perhaps turn him to spying. And you could spring it on them at an opportune time - it's a position of power. (It's hard to say if that sounds like an employer talking to an employee or not; I mean, that conversation really isn't the place to be talking about working conditions or maintaining the existing social hierarchy. And the fact that they're out on a hill rather than in Hogwarts suggests that something else is happening as well, something that's not necessarily pertinent to the story we're getting.)

[vanityfair00.livejournal.com]

My interpretation of is that Snape was already working at Hogwarts at LV's instructions and probably with DD knowing he was a Death Eater (maybe he wanted him around to do some spying of his own on Severus - maybe that's why he knew to be in the woods when Snape returned.) The "don't kill me" statement makes sense if he's wearing his Death Eater robes. He's identifying himself as someone DD knows so he doesn't wind up and kill him on the spot. And it also makes sense that they are on a first name basis if they were working together already. He calls him Severus, not Mr. Snape like he might if he were just a former student rather than a current colleague.

[nemesister.livejournal.com]

Nah, Dumledore calls everyone by their first names, including Lucius and *Tom*.

I'm very confidant to say that this was the first contact between Dumbledore and Snape. They certainly don't act as if they have any kind or previous agreement.

[nemesister.livejournal.com]

Err *confident

[safakus.livejournal.com]

LOL, I just wrote a long ass reply to explain it, then re-read what I wrote before posting, and realized it didn't make any sense at all, and deleted it.

I wrote this theory a while back, that Snape was not in fact a spy, but a messenger. And the conversation you mentioned above suggests that it was at least intended that way by Voldemort.

I don't know... Maybe it's b/c JKR is stupid!!! LOL that felt good.

And I like AU stories.

I didn't help at all, did I? *hangs head in shame*

[ex-neke.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Create your own truth and try to keep it consistent. ^^

[veradee.livejournal.com]

Does it help when I add that in OOTP (p 325), when it is still the year 1995, Trelawney herself mentions that she joined the staff of Hogwarts 16 years ago? As you point out, Dumbledore says the same about half a year later. Who is correct, though? Of course, both may have added or substracted a few months for the sake of simplicity.

What about this scenario?

Snape overheard the prophecy in 1980 and told Voldemort about it right away, but Voldemort twiddled his thumbs for a whole year until he decided which boy to kill.

For some reason I always thought that Snape decided to leave Voldemort and become a spy quite some time before Voldemort attacked the Potters, but obviously DH shows I was wrong. It seems to have been a matter of a few weeks.

Now that I didn't help at all, I will say that I think that JKR doesn't know how to use a calender. Therefore, I would pick whatever timeline fits for your story. You can always add an annotation, explaining that the canon timeline is off.

[sigune.livejournal.com]

Yes, maybe I should do that... It's just that I've always had difficulty breaking loose from canon. What fired my imagination in the first place has always been to fill the gaps. but if the gaps have an impossible shape... :/

I've noticed, though, that the Lexicon hasn't updated its timelines yet. Would that be because they haven't had enough time yet, or because JKR has finally made their job completely impossible? For one thing, they had calculated that Snape must have been born in 1958 or 1959 at the latest, but it's pretty clear now that for JKR it was 1960 (about the only thing with which I'm happy, really). I really am curious to see what the lexicon is going to do...

[veradee.livejournal.com]

I didn't know that it is now a fact that Snape was born in 1960. Is it mentioned in DH? I was rather partial to the year 1959.

I still don't know whether I will write some story about Snape. So far I haven't found a way yet to avoid mentioning Lily.

[sigune.livejournal.com]

Oh, wait - I'd better watch out what I'm saying, because I'm as bad at maths as JKR, if not worse, and thinking about dates and the school year usually makes my mind boggle.

All we do get is the solid fact of James and Lily being born in 1960 - March and January respectively. ...Er, so, yes, if Lily was born in Janury 1960, and Snape was in her year in is also from January, he'd have been born in 1960 too, right? (*avoids maths*)

[veradee.livejournal.com]

I must have missed that. How strange, but I might not have properly read the relevant paragraph because seeing that it dealt with James and Lily, I might not have cared that much.

As long as Lily wasn't born on 9 January. ;)

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

I personally think the conversation on the hill must have taken place in the winter of 1980/81, after Harry's birth but long before Dumbledore hired Severus. It just doesn't make sense to me otherwise, and the other clues we have in canon do suggest that Severus was spying for Dumbledore for close to a year before the Dark Lord's downfall.

I imagine Dumbledore was being his usual passive/aggressive, manipulative self in failing to urge the Potters to go under the Fidelius charm immediately.

But it is also true that the fans have made a much more coherent (not to say moral) story out of the hints Rowlnig has given us than she did herself. So I would say, "Do what you want! At this point, absolutely nothing you say can be canon-shafted!" And we will all read it with pleasure.

[yevgenie.livejournal.com]

It's okay. It happened in the same magical timeline where Voldemort and Snape agreed after Lily died that there were better women for him. You know... that timeline where he *tried to kill Harry and died.* For the first time.

[headdesk]

[sigune.livejournal.com]

*g*

Well, if you want to be very, very benevolent you can always read Voldemort's "when she had gone" as meaning, "when she had disappeared from Snape's life by choosing Potter" - but I admit I'm far from sure that JKR was thinking that when she wrote this sentence :D...

A theory.

[(Anonymous)]

I have a theory that makes sense of this, and somewhat salvages JKR's consistency. Why is it impossible that Snape became potions master partway through the school year, as opposed to at the beginning? My theory is that James & Lily were professors at Hogwarts, of DADA and potions respectively. When they died, both positions would be open, no? So it would make sense for Snape to apply for DADA, but get the potions job instead. She still should have made this clear in the novel, to save us fans confusion. Remember she never would say in interviews what their careers were.
About Dumbledore not obliviating Snape. Voldemort can break Memory charms. Bertha Jorkins, anyone? Also, when the trio were escaping from Death Eaters in Totenham Court road, they obliviated them. Didn't stop Voldemort from finding out exactly what happened.
And Voldemort talking to Snape about Lily is harder to explain away. But couldn't it have happened after Voldemort's resurrection? When Snape returned to him? They would have discussed everything about Snape's loyalty, and surely Lily would have come up.
Sorry for posting anon, I'm not on LJ.
Luthien02

[cr-the-mighty.livejournal.com]

For me, timelines are a right pain in the arse, so I tend to ignore them and just read the book as is. Inconsistencies be hanged! Probably a bad thing that I'm a writer. =P

Let's just say, Dumbles is a nutter, and there's nothing wrong with a bit of AU.

This is why I write humor fics; everyone's still alive, the Order still meets at Grimmauld Place, and Voldy wears spectacles. XD

[sigune.livejournal.com]

Hee hee - I admire your spirit :-). Unfortunately I am lousy at writing humour fics, much though I deplore the fact (because I certainly love reading them)...

[cr-the-mighty.livejournal.com]

Well, it's not much of a stretch for me to write them; I'm fairly batty in my own right. =p

[orpheus-samhain.livejournal.com]

From what Snape and Trelawney said about their Hogwarts careers it seems that Trelawney teaches from January or February 1980 (I don't know when the term starts), and Snape from September 1981. Prophecy was made earlier, that probably means that it was autumn 1979.

Voldemort decided on Harry in winter 1980/1981, certainly before the start of 1981/1982 school year.

He is a Death Eater (fully expecting to be killed on sight) coming to Dumbledore with information, not Dumbledore's spy reporting what he has discovered (as we all assumed before). not all ;)

DD offered Snape the position of Hogwarts teacher and a spy at once. This way V thought that Snape works for him (he ordered him to do so) and that DD is an old fool. Of course DD knew that Snape was a Death Eater, only reformed :) I don't understand why you find it impossible. Snape would do anything DD demanded because of Lily.

[(Anonymous)]

What ever you do, don't stop writing!

I think the conversation on the hill happened in 1980. And, I think through some slight of hand, SS will suggest to LV that he apply for a teaching job at Hogwarts. which will happen fall of 81. I don't think DD exactly twiddled his thumbs for a year---look at the defensive spells that work in DH on all those 'safe' houses they had for Harry. But I think it was almost a year later that they resorted to the Fidelius Charm.

Trelawney is our source for Snape applying for a job earlier, but that's her story. I think somewhere along the line, she came to that conclusion, incorrectly. I always accepted it as true, but I also thought Harry would grow up to become Minister of Magic and have 12 kids. (I guess that could still happen.)

For what it's worth, and given that I'm right there with JKR on maths, I think Trelawney applied for the job in Sep/Oct 79. I'm basing that on a very literal interpretation of her comments in OoP.

Another interpretation of the hill, could be earlier fall or late summer of 81. So that Snape was only spying for a couple of months before LV's downfall. It was still at great personal risk on Snape's part.

I don't think either timeline would be out of character for DD---assuming that is that I know what his character is after DH.

Potioncat ( who can't find her stupid password for the LJ!)

[firefly124.livejournal.com]

It seems like all you can really do is vague it up a little, because it's just such a mess. I feel your pain. There's an event for my WIP that I need to locate a bit before Snape's defection, and it just can't really be nailed down. I've made calendar pages to try and sort it all out, and it just doesn't work. It didn't work very well before DH, and it makes even less sense now.

I'm not crazy about her "bad at maths" excuse either. It actually doesn't take all that much to get ahold of calendars that you can print out from the web for pretty much any month and year. Then you can do things like write down when your events happened and just *count* the months/years/whatever. ::headdesk::

[sigune.livejournal.com]

I know - or if she found she couldn't work it all out herself, she could have asked for someone to look it over for her. When I'm not sure that my plot fits, I ask my beta whether she thinks I'm making sense. It seems to me that for someone who boasts of having taken a gazillion of notes and drawn up plans for the entire series from the beginning, JKR actually turns out to be pretty careless :/. For myself, I sometimes find perfectionism a burden, but - I wouldn't want to deliver anything that rattles as much as that, even if I can't do maths (because I really can't *g*).

I think I'll have to learn to let go of my urge towards canon-compliance and just see what fits with my story :-). What else can you do with such a heap of contradictions?

[firefly124.livejournal.com]

I think I'll have to learn to let go of my urge towards canon-compliance and just see what fits with my story :-). What else can you do with such a heap of contradictions?

I think that's about all you can do. I know that's what I'm going to end up doing, even though I just keep driving myself to drink to try and make it fit with canon.